Our Flag Means Loss of life’s creator unpacks episode 7’s large drama and ending

Season 2 of HBO’s pirate comedy/romance Our Flag Means Loss of life takes some large turns by episode 7 — possibly not as large because the season 1 flip, when inept pirate captain Stede Bonnet (Rhys Darby) and Ed “Blackbeard” Educate (Taika Waititi) realized that they had romantic emotions for one another, however nonetheless… an entire lot of issues occur that we figured viewers would wish to speak about, as soon as they’d seen it for themselves. So when Polygon sat down with creator and showrunner David Jenkins to speak about season 2, we break up the dialog into two elements: an outline of the season’s largest concepts, and this spoiler-focused dialog about all of the surprises in episode 7, together with its explosive ending.

[Ed. note: Read on at your own risk; spoilers abound ahead.]

Picture: Nicola Dove/Max

To recap: In episode 7 of Our Flag Means Loss of life season 2, Stede and Blackbeard have simply had intercourse for the primary time, they usually appear all set for his or her happily-ever-after collectively — till Blackbeard abruptly leaves Stede to pursue a job as a fisherman. The crew visits the Republic of Pirates, the place Oluwande (Samson Kayo) expresses emotions for Zhang Yi Sao (Ruibo Qian), although he was beforehand uncomfortable together with her expressing emotions for him when she took over his ship, and although he and his pal Jim (Vico Ortiz) had a romantic liaison in season 1. Additionally they study that The Swede (Nat Faxon) has fortunately settled in as one in all 20 husbands to Spanish Jackie (Leslie Jones), although he was pressured into that relationship to avoid wasting the remainder of the crew.

Sure, that abstract does sound like one thing out of a cleaning soap opera, now that you simply point out it. However this doesn’t: On the finish of the episode, a lure set by Prince Ricky (Erroll Shand) obliterates Zhang’s fleet, and the pirates’ haven is destroyed when the English fleet sweeps in to kill or seize the entire forged. Jenkins talks us via all of it beneath.

This dialog has been edited for concision and readability.

Polygon: One factor that basically shocked me in season 2 is that you’ve two completely different coercive relationships the place a person is being uncomfortably pressured into an intimate relationship with a girl, after which he later decides he likes it. What sort of conversations went into these relationships and the gender tropes you’re reversing there?

David Jenkins: With The Swede and Spanish Jackie — she owns [her husbands]. They reside in her basement, and she or he owns them, mainly. So already, you’re [ick noise]. However then I really like that The Swede actually likes her. She’s a gangster, she’s a mob boss. There’s a gender facet to having her in that position. However then he says, “I’ve discovered elements of myself that I by no means knew existed, and different elements I assumed had been lengthy gone.”

I simply appreciated the concept of Leslie [Jones]’s character and Nat Faxon’s character being collectively and glad, balancing one another. She’s already acquired a wild factor going — she’s acquired 20 husbands. To me, to see that relationship begin as type of a joke, Oh, Leslie’s character’s scary and his character’s timid, and it turns into No, really, they stability one another fairly properly — that’s type of candy. It’s much less about the truth that she basically owns him, it’s about the truth that they do care about one another. It’s type of good.

Picture: Nicola Dove/Max

However you might have very a lot the identical dynamic with Zhang and Olu. After they begin out, she’s acquired all the ability within the relationship, and she or he’s type of predatory about claiming Olu. He’s intimidated and compelled into it, and he comes round on deciding he likes her. It simply looks like an odd beat to repeat.

Effectively, she has all the ability within the relationship till she doesn’t. After which she realizes that she’s in love with this man — he’s comfortable and sort and candy. And that’s highly effective. I believe they’re mirrored in Blackbeard and Stede’s relationship — they’re every one another’s manic pixie dream woman.

I believe there’s something within the present about how piracy is a brutal lifestyle. It’s basically Mad Max, this world. There’s no legislation, there’s simply sturdy and weak. And in tales like Recreation of Thrones, we see how that performs out. It’s a number of girls getting raped in tales and also you’re like, [resigned ick noise]. In Our Flag, a number of these relationships aren’t consenting relationships — they’re power-dynamic relationships, as a result of it’s Mad Max. So a factor I wish to see on this present is, Effectively, why is the extra highly effective particular person on this weaker particular person? What are they making an attempt to stability?

In a world the place would possibly makes proper, and a few individuals simply must align themselves with somebody sturdy, it’s fascinating to be like, Effectively, what does Blackbeard want? What does Spanish Jackie want? What does Zhang Yi Sao want, essentially the most highly effective pirate on the earth? What occurs when she will get right into a relationship? What’s she searching for? She’s a contemporary particular person, what does she want? So that you’re all the time gonna get these bizarre energy dynamics to begin with, I believe, and then you definately simply attempt to get to: What’s beneath that? Why are they doing what they’re doing? What are they searching for?

Picture: Nicola Dove/Max

Talking of what Blackbeard wants, I believe some followers will suppose that him leaving Stede in episode 7 is a type of revenge. It so carefully parallels what Stede did to him. You possibly can learn it as them being very a lot alike, working from dedication, or as him making an attempt to harm Stede. What do you wish to say to individuals freaking out after episode 7?

Effectively, there’s a factor I speak about lots — I actually, actually appreciated the Bradley Cooper/Girl Gaga model of A Star Is Born. I like how the dynamic modifications between them. Every thing we do is collapsed on this present — we speak about these lofty issues, however we don’t have the time to execute every part we would love to do. Like, episode 4 is a mini Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, only a very small model of it.

On this case, we appreciated the concept that Blackbeard discovered this man and made him a authentic pirate, however now that he’s a star, Blackbeard’s questioning what he desires to do now that he’s misplaced his urge for food for piracy. And Stede’s become Girl Gaga’s character. He’s well-known now, as a result of he killed the scariest pirate, in order that energy is inverted. It’s fascinating to take a look at how a relationship modifications now that Blackbird isn’t the star anymore and Stede isn’t a hanger-on. Stede acquired what he needed; he’s an actual boy. Is Blackbeard jealous? Is he uncomfortable with it? When energy dynamics shift in a relationship, that results in hassle. After which it actually is rather like, What are they going to do? Are they going to make it via it? Can they rebalance? As a result of that may be a signal of a wholesome relationship.

That episode can be a giant turning level for Zhang and Olu, and for Olu and Jim. What went into the selections round them shifting in numerous instructions after their connection in season 1?

I believe that relationship was all the time seen within the room as a pal relationship that acquired romantic. That stress was fascinating to us — it’s like, Effectively, what if we don’t play them as jealous? What if we play it as, whenever you love a pal and it turns into romantic, and then you definately see somebody who makes them glad and you recognize you’re not it, you’re feeling jealous? But additionally, they’re your pal. You wish to see them glad. I believe a number of occasions, notably in straight relationships, it’s traumatizing, and may very well be extra in regards to the jealousy. However right here, I believe it’s good to see it this fashion: They really care about one another sufficient to simply wish to see their pal with somebody good, somebody who takes care of them. In my life, these are the perfect relationships [with exes]. I do see these amongst my buddies, however I don’t see it dramatized lots, I simply see the unfavorable part dramatized. I prefer it this fashion — they’re buddies, they usually simply wish to see one another do properly.

Picture: Nicola Dove/Max

This has by no means actually been a present about villains, however the finish of episode 7 looks like a shift in that regard.

I believe a number of the inner forces in Our Flag are the villains. It’s like, Are you able to let your self be cherished? Are you aware what you need in love? If you recognize what you need, are you wholesome sufficient to get it? Once you begin going into the tropes of [Blackbeard impression] Oh, ought to I be homosexual or not? or Oh, my buddies did me soiled — we’ve seen that lots. It’s good dramatic gas, however I don’t suppose these are the issues that drive the present.

I believe the issues that drive this present are a bunch of people that care about one another and are attempting to determine tips on how to have relationships. And relationships are arduous. Often, you’re your individual unhealthy man or gal or particular person in a relationship. It’s hardly ever [someone] doing one thing horrible to you — it’s you simply making an attempt to determine your individual shit. Hopefully, your pals assist.

The massive ending of episode 7 does counsel, although, that there is likely to be extra outdoors stress coming to the forged, even when it’s only a short-term blip.

I believe this can be a story in regards to the age of piracy coming to an finish. This lifestyle is coming to an finish. And each Western that’s good is that story: This lifestyle we made is coming to an finish, and it will probably’t final. […] I believe each story about outlaws is about making an attempt to protect a lifestyle towards normative forces which might be type of fascistic.

All of which is a giant historic second, so far as the historical past of piracy, and it’s a part of Stede and Blackbeard’s real-life story. Was that ingredient coming in from historical past, the way in which you took little elements of Stede and Blackbeard’s relationship from historical past?

Utilizing historic beats are good, as a result of they provide the story some form — till they’re not helpful, and then you definately simply ignore them. Once you really feel such as you’d quite eat a sandwich, simply ignore the historical past. After which whenever you really feel like, OK, we’re in emotional soup right here, we’d like some downward stress, then you definately deliver historical past again in. The stability of the present is 90% ignoring historical past, after which 10%, deliver it in, at any time when we’re like, Ah, gotta transfer the story ahead! Keep in mind, the English are on the market, they usually’re actually unhealthy!

The season 2 finale of Our Flag Means Loss of life airs on Max on Oct. 26.